Space Digest Fri, 6 Aug 93 Volume 16 : Issue 992 Today's Topics: 11 planets DC-X DC-X Prophets and associated problems (historical errors) engine failures and safety Fractional Millikans (was Re: Cold Fusion and its possible uses) Ghost Wheels & HenrySpancer_Zoo (2 msgs) Happy Birthday, NASA (2 msgs) Hubble repair mission Looking for Info on the RH32 Processor NASA's planned project management changes nearby stars Simple Space Plane! Space Combat Simulator Spock Sherzer pontificates (Re: Cost of Shuttle) The Inquisition (The Usenet edition) Titan IV Failure to: [ HenrySpancer_Zoo ] Why I hate the space shuttle Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 02:06:36 GMT From: "Phil G. Fraering" Subject: 11 planets Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Aug05.151626.20677@microsoft.com> t-alanj@microsoft.com (Alan Jenn) writes: >Has anyone considered the notion that perhaps >the asteroid belt that lies between Mars and Jupiter >might actually be the remains of the so called eleventh >planet... Just thought I'd mention a little tidbit from icelandic legend... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 00:54:09 GMT From: "Phil G. Fraering" Subject: DC-X Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space prb@access.digex.net (Pat) writes: >In article <1993Aug4.233308.14622@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes: >>The poverty line today has been raised higher than my middle >>class income of 1966. The most insidious kind of poverty is >>when the government debases the currency so it can "give" you >>a hand up. >Well, in this case, most of it wasn't direct currency debasement, >but inflation. much of it driven by high energy prices in the >70's and real estate speculation int he 80's. The high energy prices are gone and were to a large extent driven by some of the government's energy policies. The real estate speculation out here can't be used as an excuse because that market burst due to the near collapse of the domestic energy business... >pat >-- >I don't care if it's true. If it sounds good, I will >publish it. Frank Bates Publisher Frank Magazine. Gee. Maybe I just found myself a job as a writer. -- +-----------------------+"And so it went. Tens of thousands of messages, |"Standard disclaimer" |hundreds of points of view. It was not called |pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu |the Net of a Million Lies for nothing." +-----------------------+-- Vernor Vinge, _A Fire Upon the Deep_ "Sure, I meet a lot of people in this job, but most of the time I'm asking, 'did you hear the shots?'" -- Edna Buchanan ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 1993 03:14:19 GMT From: Eric Shafto Subject: DC-X Prophets and associated problems (historical errors) Newsgroups: sci.space amon@elegabalus.cs.qub.ac.uk wrote: : Someone else probably got it by now, but: : Air ships were not all that bad. The Hindenberg flew on H2 because : the US was worried about the Nazi's and would not sell them He. I believe it had nothing to do with the Nazis. It was my understanding that the Germans were not allowed access to H2 as part of the Treaty of Versailles, which ended WWI. I think I recall hearing that the Hindenberg was quite a propaganda coup for the Nazis, though. One of their claims was that the treaty placed an unfair burden on Germany, and should be abrogated. -- *Eric Shafto * The excursion is the same when you go looking * *Institute for the * for your sorrow as when you go looking for * * Learning Sciences * your joy. * *Northwestern University * Eudora Welty, The Wide Net * ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 02:53:14 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: engine failures and safety Newsgroups: sci.space In article <23sasq$p8@agate.berkeley.edu> gwh@soda.berkeley.edu (George William Herbert) writes: >Henry's just being a curmdugeon. 8-) While it's possible for >a single engine failure to cause an airliner to crash, it >nearly never happens... I'll admit to having been a bit grumpy when I posted that... :-) Note, though, a more general point: when an airliner loses *all* its engines, it better get at least one of them relit, or it's going to crash unless the gods are really smiling. When you're out over the Pacific at night and run into a Pinatubo ash cloud, the engines are at least as important as the wings -- without engines, wings just postpone the inevitable briefly. Sure, in particularly favorable conditions -- nearby long hard-surface runway, pilot who flies gliders as a hobby -- an airliner can survive an unpowered landing. And in particularly unfavorable conditions, even having two or three surviving engines won't help enough. But in the average situation, one engine out is okay and all engines out is lethal, wings or no wings. -- Altruism is a fine motive, but if you | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology want results, greed works much better. | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 01:01:50 GMT From: "Phil G. Fraering" Subject: Fractional Millikans (was Re: Cold Fusion and its possible uses) Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.space callahan@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes: >Even ten years worth of data isn't going to be very enlightening if >the noise drowns out the signal. I agree that it may be useful to >hold onto such data for various educational purposes. However, I >would think that careful professionals could obtain a more reliable >set of data in a month than thousands of bored undergrads could obtain >in the course of ten years. Or that a couple of careful professionals could devise an improved apparatus that would have less noise. >Quick! Get me my colored pencils! I'm having a paradigm shift. >======= Paul Callahan ======= callahan@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu ======= I've _got_ to send that one to Nick Szabo... he's read altogether too much Thomas Kuhn for his own good. -- +-----------------------+"And so it went. Tens of thousands of messages, |"Standard disclaimer" |hundreds of points of view. It was not called |pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu |the Net of a Million Lies for nothing." +-----------------------+-- Vernor Vinge, _A Fire Upon the Deep_ "Sure, I meet a lot of people in this job, but most of the time I'm asking, 'did you hear the shots?'" -- Edna Buchanan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 01:44:26 GMT From: "Phil G. Fraering" Subject: Ghost Wheels & HenrySpancer_Zoo Newsgroups: sci.space sr600uab@sdcc16.ucsd.edu (S.H.) writes: >Really ? >What else are you going to Kill ? A "kill file" is simply a file with names or subject headings that the posessor has deceided to stop reading postings from. Much of the news software out there is capable of filtering out messages from such people. They're not going to really kill you or anything. >Socrates was killed too. >I still read about him. I like Socrates. Please keep in mind, though, that Socrates was not so much killed as given the choice of committing suicide or leaving the city he loved and admitting to "crimes" he was not guilty of. At the time of his death he was in his seventies, and had seen much happen; he had fought in wars for Athens. He had seen one of his best friends, Kreon, become a tyrant (although the usual Greek meaning of the word does not apply to him) and lost his friendship. During his life, Athenian society had undergone a lot of turmoil, and he simply deceided to stay faithful to Athens until the end rather than abandon her like a coward for the remaining year or so of his life, even though most of Athens had turned on him. What do you think about Diogenes? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 01:56:45 GMT From: "Phil G. Fraering" Subject: Ghost Wheels & HenrySpancer_Zoo Newsgroups: sci.space pyron@skndiv.dseg.ti.com (Dillon Pyron) writes: >In article <52936@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>, sr600uab@sdcc16.ucsd.edu (S.H.) writes: >>In article <2827427880@hoult.actrix.gen.nz> Bruce@hoult.actrix.gen.nz (Bruce Hoult) writes: >> >>> >>>Welcome to the kill file. >> >>Really ? >> >>What else are you going to Kill ? >> >>Socrates was killed too. >> >>I still read about him. >Socrates also gave careful thought before he wrote. Maybe if you spent more >than ten minutes reading this group before you posted, you'd get a little more >respect. Unfortunately, all that remain seem to be the writings of Plato, which seem to bear as much relation to Socrates' beliefs as Michael Kinsley's writings bear to Eric Hoffer's beliefs. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 01:41:12 GMT From: Dave Michelson Subject: Happy Birthday, NASA Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.math In article pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) writes: > >In Greek myth there is but one Apollo. He is sometimes associated with >Helios, god of the Sun. In _Chinese_ myth there is a legend of multiple >suns. All but one were destroyed. Correct. Because all those extra suns made the earth unbearably hot, one fellow decided to shoot all but one of them down. Since this made life bearable, he was given several rewards including a potion that would make him immortal. He was to drink the potion after brewing it for a month but when the time came, his wife accidently drunk the potion instead. She became the moon goddess and the Chinese pay tribute to her every fall during the eighth month of the Chinese lunar calendar... -- Dave Michelson -- davem@ee.ubc.ca -- University of British Columbia ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 01:11:18 GMT From: "Phil G. Fraering" Subject: Happy Birthday, NASA Newsgroups: sci.math,sci.space BTW, I set the reply back to the newsgroup _I'm_ reading. I'll send it to yours too but you have to keep reponses where I can see them unless you just want to insult me. hshen@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (S.H.) writes: >In article pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Phil G. Fraering) writes: >>sr600uab@sdcc16.ucsd.edu (S.H.) writes: >>>I see. You are a part-time physics student. >>>What do you do the rest part of your time ????? >> >>Work for the family business, which is in severe trouble which >>has been affecting my studies for the worse. I'll probably just >>go away for a while, come back when I have money _saved_. > Which `family' ? My Mom and Dad. You were possibly hoping for a different sort of family? ... >>At the moment I'm just peeking in, seeing if DC-X has flown yet, and >>what people have to say about it now. >What does *Space* has to do with your family business ? Our business is currently involved in the design and construction of oilfield inspection equipment. >What is DC-X ? Sci.space has a frequently answered questions list. I'm too tired to type in the section on DC-X. >What does that DC-X has to do with you ? Hopefully if the DC-X flights are successful there will be a follow-on project or projects with the capacity to greatly lower the cost of launching material into space and thereby revitalizing the U.S. space program, which employs an inordinate amount of physicists. Were I not in physics or DC-X not relevant to physics, I would still be greatly interested and hope for its success. >How about other space missions ? I have not benefitted from other space missions nor have I been involved. Even if I never do, I hope that they continue. >>Since the nets were started as an academic excercise, there are a lot >>of students here. If you want to use that as an excuse to knock their >>ideas (especially if you don't have legitimate criticisms) feel free >>to, but you'll be in my kill file if you do. >I see. Students were used to `treat' another students! >Something new! to add on. >>>Are you sure you did not have anybody behind you ????????? >>What do you mean? >Why didn't you answer " yes or no" ? Because I am unsure of your meaning. Perhaps this is due to my poor language skills: a significant part of the population here in Louisiana can lapse into non-Indo-European grammars; perhaps I am handicapped by some non-Indo-European ancestors. Whatever the reason, we are having problems communicating. "Someone behind you" could mean that I am posting for someone else. I am not. >>>How much did you get paid from you *other* job ? >>Currently, until someone buys one of the camera systems (next >>week or month, knock on wood), I'm getting ~ $ 50.00 a week. >>After we get a camera sold, I'm due a lot of back pay. Somewhere >>around $3500 simply for the camera stuff alone. >I see, your job is to sale cameras. I thought you were `photographer' >or scientist! My job is to help design the optics and ancillary equipment for a system that uses a commercially available television camera to inspect the insides of equipment with. Do you know what a boroscope is? Our long-term goal is to have projects capable of replacing the boroscope. >So how much do you know about cameras ? Not much. I've only worked on housings to make the cameras capable of withstanding the enviornment that the customer is going to put it in (dirty and with lots of sharp edges). >What does a " montage " mean ? As far as I know, it's a photograph which is an assembly of different pictures or "photographs" or images. >Where was the word coming from ? Where _did_ the word come from, you mean? It seems to be of French origin. I have a dictionary in the other room... Hmmph. It says: [ < F < monter to mount] >Here is a challenge for you. Can you design a camera, an ordernary >camera, (which has to be portable and light weighted) to do montage >by just click a button Once only ? On one piece of film? Offhand, I'd probably try to use different prisms mounted in front of the lens, so that one frame of film would have on it images from different directions. I can't draw a picture well in this medium. >>>Below is yours. What was your message trying to sale ??? [...] >>Here, I'm saying that the volume of information on the net is >>subject to Gresham's Law: bad information is driving out good. >Really ????? What are the bad informations? Is yours good or bad ? I suppose that mine are a mixture of good and bad, just like everyone else'. >>>>"Sure, I meet a lot of people in this job, but most of the time >>>>I'm asking, 'did you hear the shots?'" -- Edna Buchanan > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>Here I'm just putting in something I thought was humorous. Edna >>Buchanan is a reporter and columnist for the Miami Herald who also >>writes some good fiction and non-fiction books. I'm also trying >>to (via this quote) find other people who have read her books so >>we can discuss them. >Interesting. An camera saleman believes ears. >I better he would be saying things differently when he sale cameras. I don't sell cameras. That's Bobby Chasserie's job. And I find it difficult to believe in ears due to the fact that I have partial hearing loss due to a series of infections I had when I was very very young. >How many of them who are in the net, sci.math,sci.space,sci.physics, >sci.sci.sci.sci__ are salesman??? At least part_time. >####### Statistics please! Right now!!!! ########## I wish I knew. I suppose to some extent everyone here is a salesman. Somehow they convinced their current boss to hire them, their current source of research funding to give them money... > Hay, I thought you sale cameras. You don't know what I mean? > Do I need to do a demon ? As a physics student I also know that even deaf people can hear vibrations. And I *don't* know what "Do I need to do a demon ?" means. > I *saw* the pictures. I took the *shots*! Okay! Now I understand. To you "shot" == "photograph" in some sense. In another you may be talking about how violence was done to you in the past and was covered up. You've got to be chinese. No other language except English has so much ambiguity... >_S.H.| Phil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 93 18:45:25 PDT From: Brian Stuart Thorn Subject: Hubble repair mission Newsgroups: sci.space You may want to pick up the current issue of Smithsonian's "Air and Space" magazine. There is a very good article, not too-technical, about space rendezvous. But basically, it takes two days to rendezvous using the least amount of fuel necessary, meaning the rendezvous will be slow, but Endeavour will have more fuel leftover for contingencies once its accomplished. Also, the slower approach reduces the risk of Endeavour's engine plumes damaging Hubble. I don't know why the spacewalks won't begin until the following day, but two good guesses would be: A) The actual RMS grappling of Hubble will take place at the end of the busy rendezvous day, or, B) After rendezvous, Mission Control will be busy readying Hubble for the repairs (folding the solar panels, for instance). -Brian ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 93 20:45:46 GMT From: "Ian B. Shef" Subject: Looking for Info on the RH32 Processor Newsgroups: comp.arch,sci.space In article <23ouak$16u@spim.mti.sgi.com> chao@mti.sgi.com (Chia-Chi Chao) writes: >I would like to get some info on the RH32 processor announced by >TRW and McDonnell Douglas in 1991 or 1992. It is supposed to be >a radiation-hard, fault-tolerant, MIPS R3000-compatible chipset. >If you know the sources for public documents on this project >(press release, brochure, articles, etc.), please let me know. >Thanks. >-- Here are a couple of sources for information and further contacts: Mark D. George, TRW RH32 Program Manager One Space Park M5-2456 Redondo Beach, CA 90278 310-812-8076 FAX 310-813-7110 email: mgeorge@etdesg.trw.com Clinton Ung, TRW RH32 Marketing Representative 310-813-5156 ============================================================================== -- Ian Shef 262/C58 0070326@ccmail.emis.hac.com or shef@ipld01.hac.com Hughes Missile Systems Co. uucp: ...!usc!hacgate!ipld01!shef (maybe?) P.O. Box 7928 phone: 818-702-4365 Canoga Park, CA 91309-7928 Any opinions expressed are author's own. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 02:03:03 GMT From: "Allen W. Sherzer" Subject: NASA's planned project management changes Newsgroups: sci.space In article steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes: > Why does government procuremnt NEED to be different from accepted industry > practice? >Different purpose, Government launches a communications satellite, private companies launch communication satellites. >different scale. Both use the same launcher. The only difference is the government pays tens of millions more for the exact same service. Same purpose, same scale. Allen -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lady Astor: "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!" | | W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it." | +----------------------16 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 1993 04:28:37 GMT From: Scott Bryant Subject: nearby stars Newsgroups: sci.space I'm looking for a list of nearby stars include NAMES. I have the catalogue of stars within 25 parsecs of the sun from the ames site. However, this list has positions and Gliese's catalog number but not the star names (for those that have names). If anyone can direct me to an electronic source that cross references Gliese number and names OR positions and names it will save me a lot of visual cross-referencing and typing. Thanks -Scott ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 1993 01:38:52 GMT From: George William Herbert Subject: Simple Space Plane! Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Aug4.205054.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes: >Okay wierd idea time again: >Ideas for a space plane, or atleast how to power it.. >Useing Kerosene (I think this will work, nicely if it does since Kerosense is >relatively inexpensive), build a jet, that can handle reentry, as the jet >climbs to finally exit the atmosphere, you use a oxygen bottle (or soem other >oxygen source, liquid oxygen(?), to oxygenate the kerosene (fuel, or what ever >fuel it is).. Physics and engineering kill this idea. delta V = g * Isp * ln (Mr) delta V required to reach orbit ~= 9500 m/s (7800m/s orbital velocity plus various losses due to gravity during the burn time, aerodynamic drag, etc). Isp (sea level) of Kerosene/Oxygen is 280ish Isp (vaccum) can be as high as 320ish Isp of a jet engine is something like 2,000 for an afterburning engine You can burn air outside until you hit about Mach 8, then have to shift to internal oxygen. So... (mach 8 is 8 * 331 m/s or about 2700 m/s) 2700 = 9.8 * 2000 * ln (Mr1) 9500 - 2700 = 9.8 * 310(average) * ln (Mr2) Mr(overall) = Mr1 * Mr2 I work through these numbers and get... Mr1 = 1.15 (not bad, you only burn about 1/7 of your start mass to get here) Mr2 = 9.38 (this is pretty bad) Mr(overall) = 10.78 1/Mr(overall) = 0.0927 This means that your plane has to fit it's tanks, wings, motors, oxygen tanks, and payload into 9.27 percent of its initial mass. Jet engines only produce about 8 times as much thrust as their own mass, and since you need about 0.5 of your weight in thrust in a plane to accellerate like this, if not more like 1.0, you're talking about too much engine mass to let this happen at all. Not to mention that you'll have to have a turboramjet engine or it will have to convert over to rocket mode earlier in flight, or seperate jet and ramjet motors (even heavier). -george william herbert Retro Aerospace ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 93 19:40:53 CDT From: Sean Ahern Subject: Space Combat Simulator Newsgroups: sci.space >From jmward@elbert.uccs.edu (Joel M. Ward) We (meaning me and a few other and hopefully YOU soon :) are in the process of writing a Space Combat Simulator. This will be a multi-platform, multi-user simulation, using three-dimensional graphics. You will be able to play from an X term or at home on a PC with a modem, at first (at the same time no less!) Right now we are in two phases of discussion: What "model" of space travel to actually simulate. Discussions about low level programming. Even if you are not a programmer, we would like your input. We need more people to participate in discussions we are having about possible engine types, possible weapon types, Hull structure, etc, etc, etc... This is a very open ended discussion since we want the most flexible game possible. I want you to be able to design you own ship from scratch, No Limits. (or pick from a list of previous designs, or even stuff in between) In order for us to do this, we need people who can help us out ideawise and technicallywise. For instance, our discussions about Hull structure always sort of trail off unresolved becasue none of us really know anything about real life structures. And ditto for many other things, hence we need you or anyone you know who is interested! If you would like to get in on the early stages of the Game of the Century, subscribe to our mailing list spacegame@purdue.edu by dropping a note to ahern@purdue.edu! You can also get more information by fingering one of my accounts at jward@puma.uccs.edu for more information about our ftp site, but right now the mailing list is where the action is. Subscribe! get all your friends to too! I hope i have stimulated lots of interest in this new project. We are going to make it ultra portable so it will be available for Windows, OS/2, Macs, Amigas, and god-know-what-else as long as it has graphics! Also any workstation that uses X or SGI. (we also are shooting for 1200 or 2400 as the worst modem you can use) -- ++Joel; ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 93 05:39:23 BST From: amon@elegabalus.cs.qub.ac.uk Subject: Spock Sherzer pontificates (Re: Cost of Shuttle) Spock Sherzer pontificates (Re: Cost of Shuttle)> No Dennis, they do not. GM wrote off Saturn cost only as a very last > resort. Nobody (even GM) can last long throwing away billions the > way you think they do. > I'll add to that. A writeoff is not a standard thing to do. It is an admission of failure. For example, the large banks have been busily writing off the bad debt on third world loans. They are strengthening themselves financially for the long run by taking the "hit" for their failed loan policies over a couple of years when they can handle it, rather than wait and pay the piper at an inopportune (and possibly bank closing) time. The same is true when a company writes off R&D on a product. It means that the R&D was, well, a WRITE OFF. You blew it, so you take the hit on your current value and try to recover as quickly as possible. Note that sometimes the act of taking a writeoff on a bad investment will cause a stock price to go up, because the investment community perceives the management has recognized a problem and will be stronger in the long run. While I am not a dump-the-shuttle today advocate, the logic of the above tends to support Alan. When you do a writeoff on something, you don't continue doing the same thing... -- ======================================================================= Give generously to the Dale M. Amon, Libertarian Anarchist Betty Ford Home for amon@cs.qub.ac.uk the Politically Correct Greybook: amon%cs.qub.ac.uk@andrew.cmu.edu ======================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 02:01:53 GMT From: "Phil G. Fraering" Subject: The Inquisition (The Usenet edition) Newsgroups: sci.space ward@agamit.wisdom.weizmann.ac.il (Ward Paul) writes: >In article <52926@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> hshen@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (S.H.) writes: >> >>What is your backgroud? >>Who do you speak for ? >> >>What do you do besides writing posters ? >Gee, no one told me the inquisition had started again. Same here. I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 1993 01:14:45 GMT From: George William Herbert Subject: Titan IV Failure Newsgroups: sci.space In article henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >Nobody in the US uses anything but solar arrays (or batteries) unless >they must. The paperwork is just too formidable to use isotope generators >unnecessarily. ...not to mention little technical details like solar cell arrays getting more watts per (lb/kg/favoritemassunit) and per dollar than RTGs. Only reactors show higher pwr/mass ratios than solar, and reactors are a whole different kettle of fish than isotope generators. RTGs only have any advantage when solar plus batteries isn't a viable option, as for deep-space missions past Mars where the solar flux is a whole lot lower. -george william herbert Retro Aerospace ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 01:40:54 GMT From: "Phil G. Fraering" Subject: to: [ HenrySpancer_Zoo ] Newsgroups: sci.space hshen@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (S.H.) writes: >In article henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >>-- >>Altruism is a fine motive, but if you | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology >>want results, greed works much better. | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > what messages do you try to sale ? > What is your background ? > What does Zoology has to do with space ? What does it matter? Henry Spencer is a computer scientist who works a lot with the University of Toronto Zoology department. This department has to a large extent been an innovator in the field of applying computer science to Zoology. > What do you do besides writing posters ? Other than above, he is the only person here who has really written a "poster." He is responsible (in collaboration) for some of the software that makes this discussion possible. (I.e. network news software). ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 1993 01:07:38 GMT From: George William Herbert Subject: Why I hate the space shuttle Newsgroups: sci.space steinly@topaz.ucsc.edu (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes: >That sounds like the one that flew into the Pinatubo plume? >There was at least one 747 on a trans-Pacific flight that lost >three engines when it ran into the plume and made it out >with one restart. One 747 that hit the Pinatubo plume lost all four engines for some time (got them lit at 9,000 ft or something, after gliding down from 40,000). Numerous 747s have had engine failures (my father was in one that had it's #3 engine's hot section blow up shortly after takeoff, it was exciting and he has some neat photos of the plane circling and dumping fuel...). I've seen a few cases where engines fell off cleanly. I can think of two large planes that crashed as a result of a single engine failure&seperation: the 747 in Europe and the DC-10 which had a motor fall off in (Detroit? Chicago?). I can think of numerous other examples where failures, including multiple or total failures, were survived. Like the DC-10 which had all three engines oil pump seals incorrectly installed and limped back into Miami with one smoking engine and two dead engines (incorrectly reported earlier in this thread as a 747). Henry's just being a curmdugeon. 8-) While it's possible for a single engine failure to cause an airliner to crash, it nearly never happens. Airliners lose engines in flight on a daily basis. I'll settle for launch vehicles that have equivalent redundancy. -george william herbert Retro Aerospace ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 992 ------------------------------